♪ Music Playing ♪ >> COMING UP NEXT ON "ARIZONA HORIZON," IT'S THE JOURNALISTS' ROUNDTABLE.

WE'LL LOOK AT THE WEEK'S TOP STORIES, INCLUDING THE DEATH OF FORMER U.S.

SENATOR JON KYL.

THE JOURNALISTS' ROUNDTABLE IS NEXT, ON ARIZONA HORIZON.

>> "Arizona Horizon" is made possible by contributions from the friends of Arizona PBS.

Members of your public television station.

>> GOOD EVENING AND WELCOME TO ARIZONA HORIZON.

I'M TED SIMONS.

IT'S FRIDAY, AND THAT MEANS IT' TIME FOR THE JOURNALISTS' ROUNDTABLE.

JOINING US TONIGHT, JIM SMALL FROM THE ARIZONA MIRROR, CAMRYN SANCHEZ FROM KJZZ RADIO, AND HOWIE FISCHER OF CAPITOL MEDIA SERVICES.

All right, panel, good to have you here, thank you so much for joining us.

Jim, we'll start with you.

Jon Kyl in failing health for a while.

Not surprising his passing.

But still, man, he had a -- he held a lot of weight and a lot of people don't even realize it.

>> Absolutely.

>> I don't think it be overstating it to.

>> If he was a Luminare their I in Arizona politics and Republican politics in fake.

He was known for being the work shores of the U.S.

senate during his time through.

And was there and team turned to him to get things done in the house and senate.

Two stints in the U.S.

senate.

Right?

He had retired, and then was called back -- pressed back into service.

After Jon McCain died he temporarily held that seat as well.

I don't know if anyone else in Arizona history that held both senate seats.

But he's in rarefied air in that regard.

And, you know, when he left it was a vacuum I think for Republicans in the State and also, you know, in the nation's Capitol.

He had a lot of institutional memory.

>> We had McCain and Kyl in the U.S.

senate, talk about carrying weight.

We are slowly inching back up there.

But that is a big vacuum, isn't it in.

>> Yeah.

I mean, he's before my time.

But also his name has still been in the discourse for forever.

And I associate him a lot with water.

He did a lot of water policy.

I associate him with like Indian rights settlements and complex issues that some politicians tonight can't to get into it less sexy headlines and more nose to the grindstone is my impression.

>> Indeed.

He was comfortable behinds scenes but worked hard and got a lot done.

>> He did.

Remember, he was there at the same time as John McCain and John sort of had a press conference sucked all the air out of the room because he was all about John that was just his personal am the issues he take liked to take on.

He saw himself as a national figure.

Jon Kyl did not see himself as a national figure he saw himself as an Arizona person.

The State did well punching above its weight Barry gold water and John roots we have been lucky to have people who see congress as a way to advance Arizona's interest and yet protect the national interest.

And he was classic at that.

>> He was classic at that.

Also he was very much a Republican, he was very much behind Republican party politics.

And policies, and including assisting Brett Kavanaugh through the nomination process at the U.S.

Supreme Court of that was a big deal at the time.

>> Yeah, it was.

And I think that that was kind of I think bunch those final examples of the kind of power that he had.

And the ability the way he knew Washington, D.C.

and understood the processes and sort of how to get things done.

Again, in sort of shepherding him to be the sherpa for Brett Kavanaugh to get confirmed through a very tough and contentious confirmation battle.

>> That was a prime reason why Doug Ducey appointed him was because the Kavanaugh confirmation was coming up and Brett would have issues.

Here a guy would weapon on TV and said during his confirmation, I like beer!

He needed to convince the other senators who respected Jon who said, okay, we'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

And that's the reason Jon did come back out of retirement.

And did agree to do this.

And then quit immediately, you know, afterwards.

>> Yeah, masterful again behind the scenes handling the senate process you mentioned water, you covered lots.

The Kyl center for water policy at ASU is named for John Kyl.

How important is it to have someone like that.

Push and pulling in the right places to Arizona.

And obviously he's been out of the pick now for a bit.

But that's a big deal.

Especially with the Colorado river water.

>>> It's a concrete legacy he is leaving behind, it happens on the federal level.

It could be dams, it could being desalting plant the federal government has a lot of sway over how water decisions get made if they are national or international as well and so I think for heavy hitters to have an interest in water makes a big difference for the state.

And I am not going name names but there are politicians who have been in office for years if they retired I couldn't point to anything they have accomplished near that level.

Not trying to disparage other folks it just is notable to getting some done to that scale.

>> Part of his legacy, definitely.

Jim, what is Jon Kyl's legacy?

>> I think it's all the things we have talked about.

And I think certainly you know, his impact on water I don't think can be overstated enough in terms of where it set policy and kind of set the framework for a lot of what is going on, what we are talking about now and really, you know, hammering out the deals with the tribes which were critical and were really important to get done.

I mean, I think he will be a Lumiere I in Arizona Republican politics for, you know, for the next generation at least.

>> Howie, 18 years in the senate, eight years in the house, the legacy of Jon Kyl.

>> The legacy in some ways, from an Arizona perspective leaving water side, not minimizing it, is he made sure quietly, by talking to his colleagues, by saying, here is what we need in Arizona, getting Arizona priorities in to federal legislation.

Again, remember, while we are the 14th largest state now we were not always.

And so fa Arizona to do as well as did, in terms of federal programs, federal funding.

And geeks to people like Kyl and, again, roads, card Hayden.

We have been lucky to have people in congress who know how to sale Arizona needs.

>> Indeed.

Paul bender died age of 93.

Very good friend of Arizona PBS Good friend of KJZZ.

We'll get to you in a second there.

Camryn.

But he was here, he was here back for the confirmation hearings of Sandra day O'connor which is basically now this all developed and happened.

And when we Talked about it a little bit the other night, in closing, he had a really strong talent for taking what could be complex and confusing he decisions and cases from the supreme court economic ago a story out of them and paid them so much easier to understand.

>> That was so important to all of us here.

You guys, because of the fact that, you know, one of these 80-page U.S.

Supreme Court decisions come out or even a state Supreme Court decision, and we are sitting there remember we all went into journalism because we didn't get into law school or whatever.

And so he would the go-to person.

Say, okay, what does this mean?

How do I make this accessible to readers?

How does this change in the public records law affect readers?

How does it change in water law affect readers?

How is this president precedent being set on abortion cases affect readers?

And he was good, as you point out, of going through and saying here are the salient points need to make to your readers.

>> It affects read efforts, viewers and listeners, he was a presence on KJZZ.

>> He was single handedly a great resource for us generally you have Paul bender's contact has been in a phone since a week after I moved to Arizona because avenues I go-to source anything do with constitutional law he could answer it.

There are so few of us who could do it and do it in away that explains it while whatever issue it's related to.

Many folks in the not room.

His loss is definitely felt.

He was a very smart guy.

>> It's funny that he taught ASU Dean of ASU law school.

He was there for decades.

He influenced and inspired so many law students who wound up being attorneys.

I mean, you can't find too many attorneys in Arizona who are born and raised here and went to ASU who are not in some ways influenced by the man.

>> That's right.

And I think it speaks to just kind of the pivotal role he's played in the legal community here, both as, you know, practice attorney as well as a scholar and an edge indicators.

In terms of shaping and helping direct all of these young up and coming attorneys and getting them -- giving them that, you know, kind of that direction in helping fuel their passion.

>> It's interesting how, I mean, left, right, all points in between they may not agreed with him because he was left of the dial here, but they really revered the way that he approaches the law and taught the law.

>> And that's the point.

Because whatever he thought he would say, okay, here is may spin if opportunity to call it.

But here is what the other side say, here are their salient points he didn't give you what he thought the Court did right, or wrong the lawyers did right or wrong here is the other side of the issue yous and here are their points and they do make point economy seeded that he any go ahead only I am right.

>> Tribal legal issue a big deal for Paul bender.

>> Obviously.

He understand particularly understanding federal law and constitution that peculiar relationship between independent nations and the United States.

>> All right.

Camryn we've got the attorney general and we've got the governor, now they are facing subpoenas from Jake Hoffman.

What is going on?

>> This is the latest in the sunshine residential pay to play accusation saga.

And so basically what happened was last had heard, you know, maize put out her report on Hobbs and didn't find anything she would criminally prosecute but it looked bad and maybe you want to beef up the transparency laws.

We got a press conference from lawmakers from the Republicans we don't like it lacks bad too.

And at the time yet another press conference a few days ago this was the Jake Hoffman press conference he himself in his capacity as the head of the senate government committee is putting out these subpoenas not just maize and Hobbs but staff and sunshine residential folks bringing them in and have them sit in his committee is answer his burning questions, I'm not 100 percent sure what to expect to come out of this is.

>> But it will generate More headlines ahead of the election.

>> That's the whole purpose.

>> September 29thth.

>> Reporter: That's the whole purpose.

Early ballots October 3rd.

No interesting timing there.

Look, it's in the interest of Republicans to keep this on the front burner and in the news.

And get a new story at 8:05 a.m.

on KJZZ and get another story in the mirror of what is going on.

Kris Mayes was legal are you correct saying I can't prove a prime.

There was a lot she left out.

Even if she didn't believe there was a crime why didn't she say the former head of the department of child safety says he was approached by the head of sunshine residential and when Katie Hobbs took office and said, hey, I'll put in a good word with Katie and you'll keep your job if I get a pay hike.

Maybe you can't prove it.

But she left -- the attorney general left herself open to so many questions and now Jake Hoffman and the Republicans are using this as a lever.

>> Again, not releasing the case files mentioned.

Hoffman cited unknown facts and secrecy as a reason for the committee hearing.

How -- there is much skullduggery going on here or attempted or alleged.

How much does it mat never the grand scheme of things?

>> I don't know.

This is mostly -- it seems to be political theater the timing, all of this, you know, to Howie's point.

You know, it's obvious that there is politics at play here running into an election, you know, I think that -- and I think the politics is twofold.

Going after Katie Hobbs this has been Republican drum beat against her.

But also I think now it's turn into going after Chris maize, who is, you know, also running for reelection against senate president Warren Petersen.

At the end of the day, I don't know if anything is going to come of this because we don't quite know exactly who will show up for it.

What documents are going to be provided or anything like that.

And exactly how this will go.

But I think if we look at those senate director nominations committee.

That also is led by Jake Hoffman.

As, you know, maybe a templet for what kind of a hearing this will be.

If folks are in the room.

You can expect that it will be political hardball.

It's going to be a lot of, you know, a lot of questions that are designed really to elicit embarrassing answers or put the people on the spot and get them to refuse to answer which I think for some purposes might be as good as anything else.

>> A few things, one, we don't know if mayes and Hobbs will show up.

And they are supposed to.

It's a misdemeanor not to.

Neither would ask the question when I asked if they were going to show up.

Howie Fischer is the guy I call when I have legislative questions.

We can't think of a time where the legislature exercised power against a sitting governor to issue a say mean actually wonder if Hobbs wins the election if this will be new norm.

But Jake-on or whoever else wish you the subpoenas and having the governor, attorney general whoever it is that they want to put on the hot seat come before their compliment and I answer to these questions like they do with the dino committee that could be an interesting and contentious turn of events going forward.

>> Well, and this even gets to the whole question of even before the election and before, you know, whoever is the new governor.

I have checked under Arizona law.

The power of the legislature to issue a subpoena and to have it find contempt is absolute.

There is no appellate process, congress has the same thing you know how congress deals with it they refer it to the Department of Justice to prosecute the person.

Our equivalent is the attorney general's office.

I don't see them prosecuting Kris Mayes, so I don't know that there is an excuse, is there a constitutional crisis coming the kind that Paul bend wore love.

>> He would love that.

>> You know, I don't know what happened if they don't show.

They can show they were supposed to bring certainly documents along with them.

And I want to see what is going to happen.

Now, I am guessing that even Jake recognizes, through the dino experience and everything else, that he has a style that tends to turn people off, shall we say.

It would not surprise me if they modify it and bring in a third party almost like a special counsel to do this.

Him grilling the governor people will say it's just being a bully.

>> The Turner point pac paid money to Hoffman's company correct?

>> Yes.

>> How does that factor into all of this?

>> It smells bad.

But here is the thing.

We have a part-time legislature We have Lawmakers who drive food trucks who vote on food truck legislation, Lawmakers who are realtors that vote on real estate legislation, he runs an advertising firm.

And as such, it's not him that's producing these ads on behalf of Andy Biggs, turning point is producing it, paying him, as an advertising person to place it.

Place those ads in the republic and everywhere else.

They put in, we know, at least $1.2 million through him and he gets to keep a percentage of that.

Should someone else have perhaps brought this issue up?

All these Lawmakers are so blind to this.

We had the guy who was the majority leader of the senate who ran a state tuition organization for scholarships who in fact, was one of these things and did not understand.

I sat and said do you not understand how this looks?

He says I understand what it means.

And that is the problem.

He's undermining himself with that.

>> Right.

>> I don't agree that Hoffman will let somebody else run this hearing.

And I don't agree it will not be his usual behavior.

I think you should bring your popcorn.

It will be exactly what we think it might turn into.

With the most contentious of dino hearings if they do show up.

And it's going to be a big show >> You expect explosions?

>> Yeah, I mean, I think either way, right?

Either they show up and we'll have that scene with them questioning and you know, having to answer questions.

Or they are not going to show up and we'll get an explosion of you know, out railing that they did not show up and that they ignored the subpoena.

And the talk about a constitutional crisis what next?

And what does this mean?

And how dare they.

I don't know what we'll see.

But it's going to be, you know like Camryn is get your popcorn and be ready.

>> It gets crazier.

Because under the title 41, which deals with state government it says if somebody doesn't show up they send the sergeant at arms to arrest that person.

I am Joe the sergeant of the arms to go up to the ninth floor where the governor is guarded by armed DPS people and say, you are under arrest governor.

This is -- this is going to be if nothing else theater.

>> Do you have a popcorn machine on the ninth floor?

>> We are getting one in the press room I tell that you that.

>> All right.

Jim, the attorney general is now accusing the senate president back to this pay to play phrase that we have heard so much before.

We are going to hear more about this now.

>> Yeah.

Yes.

We are.

And you know, the allegations is essentially that Warren Peterson the senate president who the Republican nominee for attorney general is backed -- the people that are backing him and are funding, you know, support for him, to the tune of, you know, several hundred thousand dollars, are, you know, -- they are -- it's a litany of companies basically and people that Kris Mayes as attorney general has sued.

And so they are turning around and throwing their money behind her opponent.

Implied if this person wins our cases the cases against us will magically go away.

And we won't have to defend ourself in court.

>> This is a trailer park company here, is that what we are talking about?

>> One of many folks Kris Mayes has sued I tried doing research myself the progress of it.

It's difficult to kind of what Jim was saying to prove exactly what might or might not have been promised.

It could be say I am the owner of the trailer park company the attorney general sues me I am not happy I donate her opponent I am supporting anybody that's not her or I have a reason to think that this other person would drop a case like that.

And I am supporting them because I know I have like a surance that's the case.

And I think if that were true, and she knew it, it would be included in her campaign materials, but oftentimes, you know, you can't really prove that thing.

>> That's the thing, somehow people seem shocked that people who don't like what the current office holder is doing, are supporting their opponents, I talked -- the guy's name is Eli Warner he has a company called [ Inaudible ] group and they own this trailer park in Tucson.

And they put 1.2 million into an independent expenditure campaign.

He's making that.

I called him up here is what he told me.

We are not a fan of the attorney general's practices seems like she's looking for targets of publicity.

Why wouldn't He said and say, I want somebody who has a different practice.

Whether it has to do with firm or not.

>> And, again, Jim, to everyone's point here, is there something wrong with what's happening here?

Why is the attorney general look into this?

Or just to say, the office is looking into this?

>> In terms of like with the trailer park company in particular?

>> Yes.

>> I mean, the allegations of the lawsuit is about essentially, you know, electricity.

Like air-conditioning at these mobile horn parks that they are work and it's Arizona and it's hot and dangerous.

That's what the lawsuit is about.

Essentially there are laws about when utilities are not working how -- what a landlord's responsibility is.

And the allegations is that this company has not lived up to its -- to its duty under the law to the doubt at this owes its tenants in term what have the mob is here, I think at a minute him it's optics.

Right?

It looks like -- you can make -- you open yourself up to that pay for play, you know, accusation if I am getting sued I am going to go ahead and turn around and pump seven figures into the opponent.

And not em into the opponent but in the prime Troy get him through the primary it was hotly contested primary as well.

And then come back and you know, work against him in the general.

You know, they very clearly have chosen Warren Peterson and put their money behind hill he early.

And so some of it's politics some just I don't know people look and go that stevens.

>> Kris Mayes is the person to fight fire with fire they are throwing allegations of pay to play in she was weak on that investigation she was saying you are do it as well I think it's very much, you know, her tactic and her M.o.

>> Jiu-jitsu here as far as the attorney general's race is concerned.

Aero visuals are asking preliminary hearing court to block take over of the State prison healthcare system.

Quickly, if you can.

>> Yes.

>> Tell us about the situation and where we stand right now.

>> Real quickly the lawsuit started in 2012 the question is, while these people are inmates there are constitutional standards of care, healthcare, mental health and everything else the case drag odd for years example state kept saying we'll do better.

We'll do better.

Judge silver in 2022 issued a 200-page opinion saying reckless disregard for the health of inmates.

Issued an injunction.

The State says since Katie has been there, her direct to there, we are doing better.

Admitting that they are still not in compliance.

So the judge said, that's it, I have had it.

And appointed a receiving to take over the healthcare system.

Giving that receiver the same powers as director to hire, fire, break contracts.

And to spend money.

The State sun hype.

They did not get -- they didn't convince Rob silver to stop it.

They did not convince the ninth circuit to stop it they filed at the U.S.

Supreme Court to say please delay this while we got a chance to make our case.

>> As how a mentioned the stay admitted legal standards of care are still not being met what did they expect the Judge to do, okay?

>> Yes.

>> No big.

>> That's what they were hoping for that's a good synopsis in 12 off 14 years we'll have it figured out.

I don't know we have any reason for the higher court to agree and say, oh, you have done good enough.

>> What do you think, Jim?

The State is saying.

Sangs take too much.

>> The State's organize is that judge.

Pulled the trigger on what is more or less a nuclear option hear too quickly didn't, sought other remedies when the judge rejected that argument said, yeah, no, like I have.

We have spent all this time, spent you know, 14 years of sanctions and of all kinds of things and even in the time she even detailed in the time since the inning judges that the State agreed to and the terms it agreed to.

All of the ways that -- all the things she had done to poke and product and pull the State into compliance and yes, while there have been movement in that direction it wasn't enough and it wasn't fast enough and it's not like the problems are new.

>> Right.

>> And that it came down to the state being unwilling to do what is required of it and spend the money in a lot of cases.

>> What they have to note is the plead that we want to the U.S.

supreme court is not to overturn the appointment of the receiver, it's to stay it so that the case gets to say, look, we are making progress, they point out for example, this receiver is supposed to be in mace for five years.

We are just asking for more time.

So can we at least, you know, delay this as Jim calls it the nuclear opt.

>> All right.

We will stop it there.

Howie, I think that the president trump has banned you from the white house.

>> Well, I -- congratulations.

>> I am -- if I am in good company with CNN and MSNBC and politico and everyone else I hope that the people in the Arizona state don't say that's a good idea.

>> That's a good idea.

I gotta think about that one, panel, good to have you here, that's it for now I am Ted Simons thank you for joining us.

You have a great weekend.

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