♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ >> Dr. Shari Rogers, founder and president of Spill the Honey, next on "The Chavis Chronicles."

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♪♪ >> We are so honored to have Dr. Shari Rogers, founder, CEO of Spill the Honey.

Welcome to "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> I am so honored.

I can't tell you how much I appreciate this interview, and especially, given your legacy, sitting with you.

It's just a thrill.

>> Well, we're honored to be in your presence.

You're from Detroit.

I mean, so many thinkers, creative geniuses come out of Michigan and Detroit.

You're from Michigan?

>> I'm from Michigan.

And Michigan is really -- People underestimate the power of Michigan and Motown and how Motown really represented the bringing together of all people.

>> Spill the Honey.

This organization does promoting favorable, embracive relationships between Blacks and Jews in America.

But let's deal with the name.

How'd you come up with Spill the Honey?

>> I actually met a Holocaust survivor whose mother's last gift to him before he was sent away to five concentration camps was a cup of honey.

And she said -- she used the Yiddish word "bashert."

She said it was bashert that you will survive, and I know you will remain sweet.

And he didn't understand why she gave him that cup of honey as her last parting gift to him.

It broke, obviously, but it gave him hope that the world was still a good place, despite how horrible the world is.

>> So his mother was a victim of the Holocaust?

>> Yes, she was a victim, but so was he.

She was killed.

Her whole family - His whole family was killed, but he survived holding on to his mother's last wish to him, that he would survive.

Likewise, Dr. Martin Luther King could have filled his cup with anger with everything going on, and he filled his cup up with love and hope, and Spill The honey represents hope for the younger generation and unity and how we can use the Black and Jewish template as a example, as a model for two different communities coming together that didn't focus on their differences but focused on common goals that actually changed the conscience of America.

>> You know, I grew up in the Civil Rights Movement, and one of the things that I saw firsthand and was so pleased to see, the relationship between the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel.

It was so -- It was more than just solidarity.

It was comradery.

There was working together.

And, of course, you know, in the Civil Rights Movement, Blacks and Jews worked together, planned together, marched together, some even died together, in Mississippi in particular.

So this legacy of Blacks and Jews working together for freedom, justice, and equality, I think more people need to know about that.

Not just Black people, not just Jewish people, but all people need to know about this historic relationship.

And as I understand, Spill the Honey, today, you're trying to reaffirm that solidarity.

>> Many of the civil-rights leaders I was able to interview for our film, "Shared Legacies: The African-American Jewish Civil Rights Alliance" -- so, from Harry Belafonte to Reverend C.T.

Vivian to Rabbi Berman, getting the firsthand witnesses to this important historical American coalition.

And what was really extraordinary is Congressman John Lewis -- bless his memory -- he actually helped fundraise for the film at the temple in Atlanta, the temple that the Rabbi Rothschild worked very closely with Dr. Martin Luther King that was bombed for how -- because he had worked so closely with Dr. King.

So it was just an extraordinary experience.

>> So, again, for our audience benefit, the synagogue in Atlanta was bombed because of their support of the Civil Rights Movement, the rabbi's support of Dr. King.

A lot of people don't know that history.

The name of the movie is "Shared Legacies."

That's a great name.

Who came up with that name?

>> Actually, Dr. Jones and I. Dr. Clarence Jones, Dr. King's attorney, who was his legal attorney.

Him and I were talking about "What could the name be?"

You know, we're going back and forth.

But, really, "Shared Legacies" seemed to cement forever that common legacy that we both have, that we both experienced what it's like to have extreme prejudice and pain.

But at the same time, we both had hope, and we both accomplished so much in American history that people don't know that the Civil Rights Movement really laid the foundation for so many movements after that.

>> Well, thank God that Clarence Jones, attorney Clarence Jones, Dr. Clarence Jones, is still with us because his memory of -- Because he was shoulder-to-shoulder with Dr. King, and so many decisions that had to be made not only as Dr. King's lawyer, but sometimes speechwriter, sometimes confidante.

Because, you know, we went through some difficult times in the 1960s, and I'm so glad that -- I understand that Clarence Jones is your chair of the board of Spill the Honey.

Tell us about the relationship with you and Clarence.

>> Well, we're so honored to have him as our chairman, especially -- He's 93 right now.

I met him in Detroit at the Charles Wright Museum, and he had written a book, "What Would Martin Say?"

And he had the right to write a book, "What Would Martin Say?"

because he was his attorney and draft speechwriter.

So one of the chapters was on anti-Semitism.

And so afterwards, I sat and talked to him.

And at the time, President Obama was president, and the Obamas were honoring him at the Kennedy Center for Performing Arts.

And so I said, you know, "I'd love to come."

And I thought I'd be one of 100, but he invited me, and I was one of 20.

And we developed a close friendship, and we realized that there was no film really on documenting this history.

And when it was the 50th anniversary from the Selma to Montgomery march, when you can imagine President Obama being on the bridge that was named after the Ku Klux Klan being there.

So filming as many witnesses as we could to that history, it was quite extraordinary.

>> Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma, Alabama.

>> Correct.

>> The 1965 voting rights struggle.

We got the Voting Rights Act in the wake of the tragedy of John Lewis and others being beaten on the Edmund Pettus Bridge.

And so you and Clarence came up with this much needed film, "Shared Legacies."

When will the film be completed, and how are you going to distribute it?

>> Well, the film actually was completed, one part of it was completed.

It was chosen out of 17 countries to open the Atlanta Jewish Film Festival.

But since then, we've consolidated the film, and we're still working on finishing the shorter version, which, God willing, you will be in.

But because there was such a demand to learn more -- Because the film sparked an emotion when people saw it, they wanted to learn more.

So now we have a curriculum from sixth grade through college that can support the film and our media and other shorts that couldn't even get into the film.

>> Well, that's very important.

So not only will the public at large be able to see the film, but there's a study guide, a curriculum, for elementary, junior high, and high schools.

>> Correct.

>> Because really, as you know, Dr. Rogers, I mean, you have a PhD in psychology, so you know what I'm about to say.

No one is born a racist.

No one is born an anti-Semite.

But they become, with racial hatred, with anti-Semitic hatred over a period of time.

And sometimes these stereotypes, these phobias, these fears, this hate starts at a very early age and then grows.

So to have something that would introduce young people today to not only the history of Blacks and Jews working together, but learning more about the benefit of all people working together, what has been the response of this curriculum that's been developed?

Do you find people are interested in, or -- tell us.

>> Well, we're very -- I found that people are very interested in learning more, and it's something new that they had never had before.

And I think what happens is, is when we show the film and have, like, a workshop, kids want to -- they said -- I'll give you an example.

We were at University of Michigan Business School, and there was a diverse group of young people in the audience.

And, you know -- and one of the young Black men said to this Jewish young man, he said, "If I would've known we had this relationship, you could have been my brother."

And from this experience, business relationships start, friendships.

I mean, it's almost like they found a family member that they didn't know.

And so I think it's really powerful, from that perspective, but also, in terms of the curriculum, I think American history, it's an American history story that needs to be taught because it's one of the most important stories that remind people of our common humanity.

And I look at Spill the Honey even in a different way.

The idea that honey is like the soul, and once you tap that soul, you just want to spill it.

You want to share.

You want to connect to the person you're sitting with.

It brings warmth.

And right now, I think the younger generation needs hope.

They need to be reminded that we have more in common than we do differences.

>> The oneness of our humanity.

>> Yes.

>> So, Dr. Rogers, according to all of the U.S. intelligence agencies, particularly domestic, they plotted a rapid increase in anti-Semitism in America.

This is even before last year, the tragic terrorist attack by Hamas on Israel.

How do you see a film like "Shared Legacies" and the work of Spill the Honey to help stem the tide of anti-Semitism in America?

>> Well, I think when the Americans see that, of the white community, that the Jewish community could empathize and not only empathize, but accomplished helping change the laws in America, I think it's a different view of the Jewish people.

And when Jews came to America, they were turned around.

They couldn't go to -- They couldn't teach.

Professors couldn't teach from Nazi Germany, but it was the historic Black colleges that allowed the Jewish teachers to teach there.

So it wasn't just Jewish people contributing to the Black community.

It was also the Black community contributing to the Jewish community.

Like here, we're in Thurgood Marshall Building, and Thurgood Marshall was one of the most amazing lawyers that actually helped to pass laws so that Jewish people could buy land.

It wasn't just the Black community.

>> A lot of people don't know that.

Thurgood was not only a civil-rights champion for Black Americans, but also for Jewish Americans.

That's part of the legacy that a lot of people don't know.

>> Exactly.

Exactly.

But going back to your anti-Semitism question, I mean, I think what's interesting is, Dr. Jones and I, years ago, before even October 7th, he is a professor at Stanford, and he had noticed the rise of anti-Semitism.

And he had promised Dr. King personally -- Dr. King had said to him, "If our --" he used the word "Negro" at the time.

He said, "If our Negro brothers and sisters ever speak negatively of our Jewish brothers and sisters, it will be you, Clarence, to remind people of the 24/7 commitment of the Jewish people to our struggle."

So I think having the firsthand witness, and especially Dr. Jones and so many others, like Andrew Young and Harry Belafonte, it's not just Dr. Jones who really wanted to give testimony to how integral we work together.

And it wasn't everybody.

There was still plenty of racism in the Jewish community and the Black community, but it was enough of a coalition that is worth documenting this American history story.

And I just wanted to say something else.

Our executive director is Congresswoman Brenda Lawrence, and like her story -- >> A member of the Congressional Black Caucus from Michigan.

And she now works with Spill the Honey.

>> And what's so interesting is, is that when she was a congresswoman working with the Black-Jewish Caucus, she noticed, of course, being first a mayor of Southfield, she worked with the Jewish community and the Black community.

And at the time, when she was in Congress, as part of the Black-Jewish Caucus, the churches were getting bombed, the temples were getting bombed.

So she said to John Lewis, "John, has there ever been a Black-Jewish Caucus?"

And he said, "No, Brenda."

And so he said, "I think we should form it."

And she said, "Absolutely."

So she went out and literally got -- she really formed the Black-Jewish Caucus with John Lewis.

So when she retired as a congresswoman, she really wanted to see education in this -- in this space.

So we were honored to have her as our executive director to help promote our curriculum using the film and our film footage.

So it's quite an honor.

>> You couldn't have found a more qualified person.

>> That's true.

>> The Black-Jewish Caucus that she helped start with John Lewis in Congress, is that caucus still alive?

>> It is, and Deborah Wasserman Schultz is the president of it.

And she's from Florida.

And actually, Congresswoman Lawrence just called her about two weeks ago, and she said, "Deborah, you know, we have this film, and we have a curriculum now on the subject.

We'd love to come to the Library of Congress and to the Black-Jewish Caucus to present it."

And so Deborah's organizing this for us to come to the Black-Jewish Caucus sometime in February.

>> That's great.

Michigan is a racially diverse state.

How have the people in Michigan been receptive to Spill the Honey?

>> Well, I think, in Detroit especially, I think that it's been really amazing.

It just seems like the people who have heard about it and who have worked with us are already being transformed.

Lisa Phillips, who's a principal at Cass Tech, she brought -- even after October 7th, she brought Congresswoman Lawrence and our hip hop -- we have a hip hop strategist pedagogy that really is -- We educate the -- some of our history in this way, because we know that, for kids to really care about the history, not only is it through film, but you've got to deliver it in the way they can accept it.

So like during the '60s, music was also a way to inspire, of course, the Civil Rights Movement.

But now it's important to create new songs and new hip hop using the education of the Civil Rights Movement to educate them.

So at the end of our film, for instance, there's a hip hop -- There was a young woman from Spelman who we sat and learned about this history, and then we did the song together, and it's amazing.

And it's just an amazing opportunity to -- We have like about seven hip-hop songs that are in this space that we use to augment our curriculum so that the kids can learn it and, at the same time, after we educate them, one of the civic-engagement projects is that they create their own song, because I think if you don't -- if you don't give to something and you're just receiving, you don't really attach to it.

So it was important -- And they named the song.

It was called "Heal."

After we came in and started talking about this American history, using the hip hop songs, creating our own -- their own song, it was amazing.

And, actually, Big Sean, from Detroit, donated that -- that studio to Cass Tech.

>> I know Big Sean.

You know, hip hop transcends race, ethnicity, religion.

It's a global phenomenon, started in the South Bronx.

But I'm glad to hear that you're utilizing that cultural phenomenon to reach with messaging to young people.

And you made a very important point about self-expression.

I think if you get young people -- I want to hear that song, "Heal."

Is that the name of it?

Because I think that we need more of that in today's climate, particularly social media.

You know, there are a lot of, Dr. Rogers, misinformation out there, and some people use social media to stir up anti-Semitism, to put out these stereotypes and tropes about the Jewish people.

How does Spill the Honey deal with the whole social media field?

>> Well, we want to, as Clarence Jones and Congresswoman Lauren says, we're going on a cultural offensive to fight the hate and to build bridges.

So we are going -- We've done some work with the NBA.

We're working with the music, podcasts, Instagram, and we are really working to get the young people to take this history and make it their own and start messaging out there how important it is to build bridges and find common unity.

>> What gives you your energy?

You seem to be so committed to this.

I mean, you have your own -- You left your private practice.

Is this is what you do full-time now?

>> I do this full-time.

I think when you see how, you know, using Spill the Honey and the ideas and the template, how you immediately connect to somebody that might be completely different than you, whether it's younger, whether it's older.

And I think, you know, nowadays, there's a sense of loneliness in the country because we're either on our phone or we're, you know, doing on the computer, and there's so little connection.

But talking about a historical connection and inspiring present-day empathy, it feels really good.

And when you see other young people or older people interconnecting, it's like a fuel of the soul to see that connection.

So that's really what I see and I believe that it also is a cure for loneliness.

>> So, I detect a nuance of optimism in your -- in your work.

You mentioned the term "loneliness."

A lot of rabbis I've talked to and Jewish leaders in other cities perceive that the Jewish community is isolated, that nobody's really speaking out against anti-Semitism except people from the Jewish community.

How do you see the landscape changing since, I think, 2012?

>> Well, we just released our film in 2020.

So we've been working on other things besides this film.

I think what we learned from the Civil Rights Movement, leadership matters.

So I think that the fact that you're speaking out, Clarence Jones, and the more people that we can get together, and young leaders like Van Jones, I think that we're gonna create a sea change of people understanding that, no matter what you feel about what's going on in the Middle East, this is America here, and that Jewish people are afraid.

They're afraid to put on any kind of -- You know, they can't wear a Jewish star.

They're being attacked.

And we know -- >> This is in the United States.

>> This is in the United States.

I mean, people are really afraid.

Students are afraid.

And, you know, I think that -- I think the Jewish community could never understand what the Black community quite has gone through because, you know, in Nazi Germany, Jews were white, so they wore, like, a yellow star or whatever to show that they were different, but the Black community is constantly reminded that they're different in terms of the color of their skin, so they can't hide like Jewish people for many years could, you know, cut off their last name.

So if it was Rosenberg when they came to America, they could make it Rogers or whatever.

But now it's a whole different story.

I mean, Jews are being attacked everywhere, and no matter what -- You know, without even knowing what's going on, you know, understanding all the nuance of the Middle East, they're just attacking the Jews and not empathizing with -- you know, with how horrible that what's going on that there's still hostages out there.

>> Given your role in Spill the Honey and given all of what you've seen across the nation, because you travel extensively across America, today, Dr. Shari Rogers, what gives you your greatest hope?

>> My greatest hope is that, I believe, like Dr. King believed, like the Holocaust mothers believe, that basically we have -- we all have a soul.

And once you spark that soul, that basically we are good people.

And I just think we have to constantly remind everyone of our common humanity.

And once you do that, you do want to spill it, you want to work together.

And I'm encouraged by even working with you, and I'm encouraged by working with so many amazing people that I've met along the way that are so different but they have a common goal to fight hate, to build bridges, and to bring unity to the world.

>> Dr. Shari Rogers, founder and CEO of Spill the Honey, thank you for joining "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Thank you so much.

Thank you.

>> For more information about "The Chavis Chronicles" and our guests, visit our website at thechavischronicles.com.

Also, follow us on Facebook, X, LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok.

Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by the following... At Wells Fargo, we continue to look for ways to empower our customers.

We seek broad impact in our communities, and we're proud of the role we play for our customers and the US economy.

As a company, we are focused on supporting our customers and communities through housing access, small business growth, financial health, and other community needs.

Together, we want to make a tangible difference in people's lives.

Wells Fargo, the bank of doing.

American Petroleum Institute.

Our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental, and sustainability progress throughout the natural-gas and oil industry around the world.

Learn more at api.org/apienergyexcellence.

Reynolds American, dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

At AARP, we are committed to ensuring your money, health, and happiness live as long as you do.

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