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And hello again everyone and thanks very much for joining us.

Abortion hardly anything else comes close to the controversy that still surrounds the issue.

Some 50 years after the Supreme Court declared it, a constitutional guarantee abortion is very much a part of this year's Arkansas legislative agenda.

And we'll get to that in just a moment first.

Education and to what extent public dollars should be steered to private schools.

A bill before this year's General Assembly would set aside about $4 million for the few less about 600 scholarship pupils.

It sponsors.

The legislation sponsors say it's about helping kids who need it the most and who aren't being served under the existing system.

But as in the two previous legislative sessions, there is significant opposition from public educators joining us.

Now is the sponsor of this years version Representative Ken Bragg, Republican of Sheridan and Representative Reginald Murdock.

Democrat of Mariana gentlemen, thanks very much for coming aboard.

Mr Bragg.

Let's begin with you.

Why, why this bill?

Why now?

Why can't the existing system be used to serve these youngsters?

Well, this this bill is about an opportunity and you know, as you said, it has two components, one for the private school, one for the public school.

But I believe all children deserve an education that best meets their needs.

An in the Publix.

First of all, let me explain.

I'm a huge supporter of public schools.

I think public education is the backbone of our education system and always will be and always should be.

But it's just that one size doesn't fit all you know, parents need a choice.

Sometimes there's a situation.

Where a child just might not be getting what they need in their education experience, it could be something like special needs an those schools are equipped to handle a lot of special needs, but sometimes they they just aren't able to meet that particular need of that particular child.

It could be instances of bullying, it could be personalities.

Sometimes they just need a different environment and I can't remember where I read this statement, but it said education is an experience and not a location so.

Sometimes I just need a different environment.

Families with higher incomes have the opportunity to make that choice to send their kid to a private school and but families with lower incomes.

They they've not able to do that.

And that's really what this bill is intended, very limited scope.

We need to understand that very limited scope as far as the number of students involved, but it just gives families of lower income a chance to do that.

Likewise, on the public sector there are schools that have have needs, and this bill also provides.

A $6 million fund where an individual school, if they have over 55% of their student population in the free and reduced lunch program, they can apply for specific grants.

You know, for their school and this could cover anything from facility needs.

Technology needs enhanced training for teachers.

One thing I'm really excited about is we just amended the bill to include workforce development needs that could supply materials, supplies and equipment.

A lot of high schools now really emphasizing workforce development programs.

And this will go a long way towards providing grants for specific equipment.

So that's basically what were intended to do is to meet some very specific needs that might not be met in a public school.

Well, Mr Brock, let me go to you for your, for your.

Take your skeptical.

Yes Sir, yeah, absolutely an understanding.

Have heard the argument many times, but what the argument never seems to acknowledge fully.

Acknowledge is the I must say, unintended consequences of such programs of these which are basically vouchers that allow separation and there it allows for a proliferation of resources away from the public school.

When we acknowledge and we have as we have done through our various consultants and others that have done assessments of the public, school and schools and delivery of education in Arkansas, it clearly says that we should take our resources.

We should leave them in the public school.

We should.

We should use those resources to make us better.

Wood resin Bragg is presenting.

We have already have specifically for special needs students the opportunity for them to go to Special Situations to get help in Special Situations.

But the bigger picture of what this will do is again, it will cost segregation and separation.

It would allow for the what's left concept of of our society.

You know we're going to take and for a portion we're going to give them this opportunity.

To leave.

And go somewhere else versus US making using our energy our resources, our capital, our influence, our political power.

Everything that we have now.

We can make this state much better educational wise.

We can supplement correctly those that are without and make sure that we do the things from a program standpoint to provide better educational outcomes by utilizing our resources inside of our public schools which will also make our communities what they should be better.

Economically, the economic development, peace I like that piece.

I like several pieces representing brackets in this bill, but what I want to see it done with it is less center.

Focus it on the public school system.

What does not take away?

It's not used it as a. Separation or a tool to separate us from one another.

Let's utilize it to make us better as we are well in your colleague seems to be saying that the existing system isn't working for these.

Young people went on well, is not worth the various reasons, and so the accountability factor is something that I started believing it.

And I think the cause if you if you hear me clearly olden pikus and our most recent group of consultants we have done assessments of the education delivery system.

Specifically, in our underperforming schools it just be a focuses on what we have not done.

Steve is.

We have not done a good job of going back and really fortifying those school districts.

Ask the.

Salt is the assessments have said that don't just mean money.

That means accountability for its resources.

$4, making sure that we have facilities, programs, instructional tools present, holding school, board superintendents, staff accountable.

It does not mean leave it means.

So what I'm saying to you is we've done the work to assess.

We see what we need, but what we've never done.

It is funded and or supported.

The school district to the level that we have assessed.

Assessment has come back if you tell me that you need this and I do less than that.

Then I have not given you the opportunity Steve to be successful at those those areas where you're deficient.

So now will send through another different diversionary program.

We're going to take resources away and send you somewhere else.

Where are we going to put the resources in public education?

Well, Mr Bragg back to you, then, why not?

Why doesn't the General Assembly, rather than using the private school avenues using that approach?

Address the address.

The deficiencies in the existing system through the existing system.

We've been doing that every every year cycle through the adequacy program.

We've we put a lot of money back into public education an I'm not disparaging public education, but I want to talk about the, you know, the scope and the impact we're talking about.

571 students that you know the scholarship is for $7000.

That's the foundation money you know for the current fiscal cycle.

So we're talking about 571 students.

That's 110th of 1% of the public school population.

And when you look at it on on a financial basis per school district, you know this is privately funded.

These are private funds that are going into the fund.

It's 100% tax credit.

So that does come out of the general fund, but the schools that makes it sort of public body though, does it not, Sir?

I mean, we're awarding a tax credit.

But The thing is this, the state is not spending that $7000 on on another student, and so we're talking about it.

Depending on the size of the school you're talking bout, tents and hundreds of a percent of a school budget.

So usually when this topic is brought up.

When I go into a public school, invariably in MF, I believe there are sincere there talk about.

It's all about the child.

It's all about the student and I believe that they are very sincere.

They're good, we got good teachers and administrators, but it's all about the child.

As long as that child was in their school.

But as soon as we start talking about a student that might not have a need met in their school, and that student leaves the school, then immediately turns to the money.

Losing the money from that foundation.

Finding an accountability for private schools.

It's it's not a discussion about the need and the betterment of the student.

It's it's more about the system.

If I may Steve Mr.

Murdock, go ahead.

OK, so so, so let's take represented breaks point here.

And if you so feel you and whomever feel as you do, that this methodology that you're using is what's needed and what's good for some.

Then if you truly feel this way, why not do it for all?

You say it's good, you say it's necessary.

You say it can make us better.

So my point to you is let's not do separation.

Let's not do partial.

If it's good, let's do it for everybody.

If it's truly determined to be good for everybody Now, let's say you.

Also, not every student needs this.

It's it's not necessary for every student.

Public schools are doing a great job, we're just talking about an isolated number of special needs here that for some one reason or another aren't being met in the public schools.

I mean, public schools just can't provide well the Arkansas Constitution, though Mr.

Bragdon said not doesn't make a distinction with kids with special needs.

It's an adequate education for every Arkansas student, right?

So yes.

So I'm sorry going to Parent feels like they're not their student is not getting that adequate education.

Then they should have the opportunity to seek an alternative.

Well, she does the state not have an obligation though, to provide that opportunity.

Yes, I did the school at the and in some cases it may not be being done alright.

Mr Yeah Mr Murdock, if I can ask you are we being as Mr Bragg seems to suggest?

Are we being too concerned here with process at the expense of outcome for the student?

No, no, I don't think so.

I think what we're concerned about is the student, and we also are concerned about the whole community and the and the and the overall picture.

The big picture.

So I understand what he's saying as he relates to special needs and students with various issues and challenges.

When I came through in the early 80s, I had those as well.

But what we were taught to do inside of our systems, then when you did not have this choice opportunity was to learn how to persevere.

Hold school boards.

Staff administration accountable for what they were not doing and we can do a better job at that residence.

Representative brand.

The answer is not to peel off this infinite percentage.

A small percentage of of students and go and send them elsewhere.

Why not just put the energy right here and fix it?

If it's such a small 571 students, we can do that.

Well, back to Mr Bragg there an.

I'll let you close for your bills or but there there is.

As Mr Murdock notes, there is once again significant opposition from school of public school admit, as you've acknowledged, public school administrators, board and areas.

And I totally agree with Representative Murdock we I'm totally for putting more funding into these programs.

But you know, that does takes some time and as a parent, do I keep my child?

In a situation for several years and indeterminate number of years until that program is fixed or do not seek an alternative, yes, there's a lot of opposition from the superintendents and administrators, but we've done polling of constituents in various districts and the majority of constituents are in favor of this specific tax credit bill, so.

I know if I may, I know you have time issues, Steve, but I've had those in my district even represented brag to come to me and send me an email or text and say hey support this.

This is good but once they got inside the bill and they talk they spoke with me.

They understood what it would do and they were really hurt that they were becoming a part of something that was just seen a care.

It was was brought to them and they seen it took ahold of it but they found out what this really is and it's really not what is intended to be or what it says to be on the face.

We have to keep our resource inside our school district.

I'm not just talking about funding represented brag, I'm not just talking about money, I'm talking about accountability for resources.

The whole picture needs to be addressed and we can do it within our public school system.

Well, Mr.

I gave you, go ahead, Mr Bragg.

We've got just absolutely agree with you about the accountability part.

It needs to be addressed and we're not discounting that at all.

I'm in total agreement with Representative Murdock there, got it, got it into their gentleman.

Because we're simply out of time.

Thank you for yours and come back soon.

OK Mr Murdoch, Mr Bragg, thanks for being with US Senate Bill six.

It would outlaw essentially all abortion in Arkansas.

Safer pregnancies that endanger a woman's life.

No exceptions.

For pregnancies resulting from rape or incest, its advocates acknowledge it is an effort to force the US Supreme Court's hand compel it to revisit the landmark Roe V Wade decision of a half century ago.

As expected, the bills sailed through the Senate as expected on very nearly a party line vote man, it's now before a house committee joining us as the primary sponsor of Senate bill.

6 Senator Jason Rapert, Republican of Conway, an from the opposite end of the Capital, Representative Tippi McCullough, Democrat of Little Rock.

The House Minority Leader to both of you.

Thanks very much for coming on.

Mr Rieper will begin with you, Senator.

The bill was almost assured of passage, but there were even among some of your colleagues.

Some reservations because of the absence of an exception for rape for incest.

Well, thank you for having me on Steve and actually Senate bill 6 is literally an exact duplicate of the bill that we passed two years ago as a trigger bill and that trigger Bill stated that at the very moment that there is a case that would overturn Roe V Wade that Arkansas would abolish abortion except to save the life of a mother and that is actually the very same language basically of Amendment 68 that was passed by the Arkansas voters in 1988 added to the Constitution.

Which said that we protect life from the moment of conception in Arkansas, except to save the life of the mother.

And so this is a bill that already had been discussed and it already passed out without any exception for rape or incest.

An as science is improved over time.

We have seen people recognize the humanity of the baby, Anna mother's womb, and so yes, there was a few that used what I call the tired old arguments of the Planned Parenthood, which tried to use 1% of the situations.

To justify continuing abortions in 100% of the cases and so in the Senate, as you say, it passed 27 seven it actually was bipartisan.

We did have a Democrat that is consistently been pro life that voted for the bill, which is definitely expected and I want to speak to because I have seen people unfortunately falling into some of this argument.

Now remember Arkansas?

Right to life asked me to file this bill.

Arkansas, Right to Life is an affiliate of National Right to Life.

Arkansas Family Council endorses it.

Bishop Taylor with the Arkansas Catholic dioceses, endorse this bill every single pro life bill that is spoken and reached out to us has endorsed SB6 to protect the lives of unborn children there.

Over 62 million little babies that have died in Americaa since 1973 and we believe this is absolutely a crime against humanity.

One last thing on this.

Before we debate a little further.

And that is that in the prohibition section of the bill.

Steve, just as it said in 2019, it says there is no prohibition on the use of any contraceptive measure of any kind up until a point that a pregnancy could be medically detected.

So if anybody was involved in a rape, or there was a horrible incestuous situation and less somebody's trying to conceal that matter, there is nothing that prevents emergency contraception.

And so we believe what we want to do here in Arkansas.

Take a strong stand for life in the Arkansas.

People are behind us on that.

I've had over 50,000 new signatures in this week of people supporting this bill.

I've got to go to your House colleague over there.

Miss McCullough.

Your response.

Thank you Steve.

Also for having me today and Hello Senator Rapert are.

Position on this has been similarly consistent, as Senator Apers has we.

We believe that this is a difficult issue to talk about.

In a perfect world here in Arkansas, we would love for women to be able to have their children make the decision to have their children and be able to raise those children and a very productive society where they are well supported.

But we also know that there's that people are running to circumstances to where the the there.

Their circumstances aren't perfect and they have hardships, and some of those choices demand that women be able to choose the best path forward for herself and for her family.

When the least of these issues is that the bills unconstitutional, we know that this is a particularly bad bill.

Two of the *****.

Circumstances are that there are no exceptions for rape or incest.

So if a woman is raped by a stranger or by family member or anyone, there's no exceptions.

And this bill is cruel in that way.

We do know what the bill does, including wasting tons of taxpayer money that's already been wasted and will continue to be defending a bill that's blatantly unconstitutional.

Here.

A few things that doesn't do.

It doesn't do anything to help her maternal or infant mortality rate.

It doesn't do anything to help with early childhood care.

Doesn't do anything to provide help provide pre K and it doesn't feed hungry children and it doesn't provide jobs to help families.

There's not even the first of its kind to be filed in the US.

There there are others out there so our position is.

This will not make abortions go away.

Nothing will unless we start doing things to help people be more successful with their family.

We what we want to do is if these are good, we're going to go back to the days of.

Of people who have means and money.

Being able to find a way to have abortions and then poor people being put in impossible circumstances where we will see some of them die.

Yeah, two point.

Senator Rapert one the absence of a woman who would be the victim of a Raper incestuous episode.

Compelling her to carry that child in term does seem a bit pinched, so your response to that, and to miss Mccullough's point that well, is frequently.

Said that that anti abortion forces are more concerned with the fetus than they are with the child.

So let me let you answer that.

Well, thank you and that's totally untrue.

Representative McCullough is just regurgitating the same old points that Planned Parenthood in every organization that wants to keep killing babies in our country gives to her number one.

Let me just tell you that in Arkansas we have the safe Haven law.

All 50 states in the nation have the same similar law.

We even have what is called the safe haven bought baby box.

Steve and we had a little baby that was presented in and saved in one of those baby boxes.

Just a few months ago here in the state of Arkansas and the law says that if a woman does not want to take care of a child or feels that she can't take care of a child, she can turn that baby over immediately to the state of Arkansas and we will care for that baby.

Representative McCullough also forgets all of the great work that we've done in the state of Arkansas to expand services to take care of children and mothers and those that are indigent in our state.

And so it's very odd that we have people arguing.

To kill a human being, and this is the essence of what this is, and so it's very, very odd for me to hear this.

It's sad for me.

Becausw Arkansas has done everything we could to care for someone and give them an opportunity to save the baby.

Asked for the rape and incest.

There is nothing whatsoever.

That prevents someone from having emergency contraception period, end of story, and So what they're wanting to say is that that is not there, but the fact is, we specifically left that emergency contraception in place so that we know there are situations of that kind.

But we also have rape victim Steve that came in testified for this bill and tell us about the depression and the medical harm that was done to them through abortions that many of them had no idea what they were really doing in the law.

Run and when you hear from those people and you hear from adopted children that were the product of rape or incest, how could anyone say killing a human being is the right choice so it's not over.

I've got to give your colleague equal time here because we're running short of it.

Miss McCullough.

Thank you, you know I respect Senator Rapert and his I think we're very sincere views on this subject, so I hope that he will also respect mine.

I I do not intend to regurgitate or just give talking points out to someone who has handed them to me just to do that.

I feel very strongly about this issue, just as he does and I I I think you know.

Yeah, I'm not for killing a human being.

Whether it's at birth or all the way to something, a issue like the death penalty or capital punishment.

Happy to partner with somebody to end in that.

Also, if we want to be truly consistent on that issue.

But I still agree we are doing good things to improve Arkansas, but there's so much more that we can do an by wasting money and all the time that we we do on this issue and everything.

There are so many more things that we could do to help prevent.

Proactively prevent abortions from happening?

In in the in the 1st place, but also that respect of a woman instead of publicly shaming, punishing, and bullying women when they should have the choice to make their own decisions is a big issue.

Also, Mr.

Robert McCullough, we are simply out of time.

We thank you for yours.

Thanks for bringing some light to the issue.

Thank you and come back soon and that's our program for this week.

Thank you very much for watching as always and will see you next week.

Support for Arkansas Week provided by the Arkansas Democrat Gazette.

The Arkansas Times and KUER FM 89.