I'm April Chatham-Carpenter.

And I'm Glen White.

Welcome back to a Braver Arkansa And if this is your first time joining us welcome.

This show is a partnership betwe Angels Arkansas and Arkansas TV.

It's focused on how we can talk to each other across our differe This week we want to go deeper o Angels Arkansas, specifically what we do, who we are, what we've been up to in the sta Our guest today is Lisa McNeir.

Lisa is a leader in our statewid and a now retired psychologist.

She's been part of our leadershi for several years now, and we wanted to talk with Lisa about what she's seen in this wo that surprises people.

But before Lisa joins us, Glenn, I want to ask you something.

You've been involved in Braver A Arkansas for longer than I have, and I'm sure that there have bee some proof points or some points of impact on you personally that you've seen.

You know, we do all these worksh and podcasts, but what have you seen that really h and been effective?

Well, several things.

But you know, probably the first thing I remember was w I think it was 2018 when we did our very first works at Saint Michael's Episcopal Chu which is the church I attend.

And we did skills for bridging the divide is what we called it.

And we'll hear some version of t on in a future episode.

But at one point, one Sunday mor one of the people who was in the class came up to me and let about something that had impacte She said, you know, I wanted to give you feedback that shortly after we did the workshop, my husband and I went out to Cal to see some of our family.

And while we were there, some of our family members, as we got to talking, we got into politics.

And it turns out they have a ver different view than we do of thi And it got pretty difficult and But I remembered what we covered in that workshop.

So she said she really resolved point to start using those, thos And so that conversation continued for a while.

And she said after a while, it really seemed to make a diffe And I learned some things that I was surprised to hear from them.

From their standpoint, it made me a little more empathe about why they felt the way they and I think that was also the case the other way arou So she said, in the end, we actually wound up having a go It kind of settled things down emotionally, and we felt pretty about the way things left.

We still had different viewpoint you know, felt it didn't interfere with the family relationship.

So that was good.

And when I heard that, I just li you know, that was an inner smil because it was our first time ever to do the workshop, and I felt like it went okay.

But when I heard that, I said, y this is going well.

I like this proof of concept.

And you could see that it really a difference in somebody else's You knew it had in your own.

But now seeing it's making a dif in somebody else's.

That's right.

So I think what -- let me ask yo a little bit of what you think about the same kind of question.

Basically, any special moments that you exp from Braver Angels activities once you've got started?

Yeah.

You know, I was thinking about there's been some there have bee and a couple actually, that related to the abortion iss which I feel very strongly about.

I’m pro-life.

With the abortion debate that came out and that we were d I was asked to be one of the spe and in the debate format that wa This was a national debate that was over zoom.

They have speakers speak on one side of the issue or the oth I don't remember exactly how the resolution was w actually worded, but I spoke out as one of the sp and then people ask me questions and then I could kind of sit back and relax and just lear from what other people were sayi Well, one of the things that that struck me as as people from sides were pro-life and pro-choi were talking were the stories, the stories that people were tel that were very personal.

And they surprised me.

The people that I would have thought were on my side were on maybe for different reasons than I expected.

And the people on the other side what I would have called the oth were there for things that made me really f empathic towards them, and so maybe realize for the fir I think that the same side on an doesn't mean that you have the same reasons o life experiences, and that story is really important, and that these kinds of issues a more personal than they are poli in terms of why we lean in a par different direction.

So it's important to hear storie Then after that, I had gotten tr as a moderator in Braver Angels to do workshops, and I remember I did two differe ground workshops on abortion.

The very first one, people were whether they were Republican or And the thing that struck me abo that was that there were pro-lif and pro-choice people on both si and I had just assumed that it was primarily the Republicans that were pro-li and the Democrats that were pro- but that was proven false by the number of people that were in this Common Ground So the next time we did the work we said, you know, in order for this workshop to be most suc we need to divide people on where they stand on the issue, not by their political party.

And it was something that stuck in terms of the way that I had b judging the the kind of politica surrounding an issue that was really pretty central to something that I believe stro It's remarkable the extent to which people's personal exper have an impact on their identifi with party or ideology, because sometimes I would think, you know, tribalism and all that It actually is something differe kind of a basic identity issue.

But that's interesting to hear.

You mentioned a term just then that I don't know that you've introduced to the au I don't think you need to take a lot of time on it, but tribali Oh, tribal.

Okay.

Yeah.

Well, I'm sure most people have about tribalism.

Basically, it's the idea that we with a particular group or tribe It kind of goes with the idea of evolutionary psychologists talk about how many, thousands of years ago in the early history of humankin it was a very dangerous world.

And it was there were dangerous animals, there was no real civil And the only way people survived was to gather together in tribes so that they could share the the and the burden of getting resour and food and water and defending against animals and hostile trib So that idea of tribalism comes from the notion that people deve a strong social sense, a group o which is not just true of humans You've got like primates, you've and ants and all that have this kind of a group identi But the idea is that in tribalis the way we talk about it now with politics, it's related to t that we've identified with this particular group over some shared political leani Okay.

So that's interesting.

So that would ring true then in terms of why I was because I assumed that particula my particular tribe would be all a in kind of thinking alike, and they really weren't.

Or the other tribe for that matter, if we're lookin from the forms of tribes.

One of the things that I wanted to follow up on from our first e Glenn, was a little bit more on Angels, Arkansas.

Is that okay if we talk a little bit about th Sure.

Okay.

So braver angels.

Arkansas actually started in lit in the central Arkansas area.

And then what we ended up doing that organizational structure when Covid happened is we made i into a statewide structure, corr Yeah, because we knew we had to on zoom and other other ways, and we really didn't have a lot that was happening at the local And one of the things that Brave Angels does in any kind of alliance or chapters as I mentioned, we mentioned in earlier, the first episode is th they have try to have balanced l And although I mentioned what I about tribes, and we're not all monolith or one kind of group ty of person in a particular politi We do want there to be red Repub and Democrats or conservatives and liberals an leaning people in leadership in this organization.

And so you and I for a while were state coordinators together You were the blue, I was the red And then I think we worked toget also as, as as the Braver Angels Statewide Alliance co-chairs as We've moved now into having tryi some a little bit more local lev I know you've worked at in devel some opportunities for people by doing presentations.

So I think there's a there's a group now in Eureka Sp in the Carroll County area.

They're having some civil conver now at the library in Hot Spring There's a Monticello group that is working with actually th the university or the community there with students to try to wo different kinds of divides.

So a lot of things that are that are actually happening in B Angels, Arkansas.

Beyond the statewide alliance.

Do you want to add anything to t I think that's the main thing.

You hit most of the alliances.

I will say this.

We would like to have more, and they're obviously some place that would be very likely candid You know, the northwest Arkansas up in the Fayetteville, Bentonville, Springdale area, there's the Jonesboro idea.

Our newsletter editor actually is from Jonesbor So and we've talked to people in some of these areas, we just haven't got enough of a to put something together yet.

So we'd love to see that happen.

And maybe Fort Smith's some othe Well, we'll basically be happy to work with in any area who wants to do that One of the things that's happene I know in Hot Springs and in Little Rock and in Conway are these civil conversations what happens in those kind of th kind of environment?

The idea is that you invite the but you start with some really c guidelines about what you can do to make respectful conversation.

And oftentimes you have a particular topic for or for that meeting, and you jus everybody know what the guidelin and then have people talk about with some moderators.

Some of our nationally trained m will have them make sure that, y people take their turn.

It doesn't kind of go kind of of into a disrespectful way.

And it's been really encouraging to see how that's gone.

People seem to have a hunger for And so they come together and ta follow the rules.

And it's real good to see people with differen having a respectful conversation So what do you think about divid I mean, do you divide those conv along party lines when people sh Do you say you've got to have a different perspective on on a particular issue, or you ju whoever shows up and you start t You know, we experimented with several different ways of d We divided into the red blue kind of thing.

We had people take turns.

We said, whoever, whenever.

I'm not sure we've ever fully de what's the best way to go.

So we decided that whoever is going to sponsor a co like this in their community can make their own decisions abo Okay.

And sometimes I know in Hot Spri they they work with the local li as well.

So to to be the local library there to be able to host that.

So it's a good place to be able to do that.

And we did that in Little Rock a Right.

Okay.

Philip Fletcher, who will hear here from in anoth I think is going to be he does he talks about doing it at coffe So there's multiple different wa Well, we have a special guest to that's going to be joining us.

And our special guest is Lisa Mc Lisa has been a Braver Angels Arkansas Alliance co-chair, and she is a in the blue realm o Ray Hanley, who some people prob from his work in Little Rock and other places with with state government, is the Red co-chair.

So if you ever see Ray out there can ask him about Braver Angels And he'll he'll give you an earf to hear about that.

But Lisa's going to going to talk to us abo How did you get to know Lisa in the first place?

Well, we are both psychologists and now we're both retired psych but I guess I'm not even sure I remember the first time I met but we've both operated in psychological circles in Little Rock for many years, and Little Rock, for it's size, still tends to be kind of small So we knew each other well that way, and I knew that she was very competent and would be a good contributor.

And so I asked her and she said yes, eventually.

Well, the rest is history.

So we're going to take a break and we'll have Lisa on after our We're very excited to be back with a specia that we briefly introduced just a second ago.

Lisa McNeir and Lisa is a retired psychologist and has been a wonderful additio to our Braver Angels Arkansas team as she has worked with us i getting the Braver Angels Arkans statewide effort underway, and helped us do trainings and workshops and all kinds of things.

So, Lisa, I'm welcome.

Thank you I'm really happy to be here.

I was getting tired of kind of e listening to all the activity we've all been engaged in.

It's a lot, isn't it?

Yeah.

Well, I want you just to do a little bit of introduction to And what do you do?

What what brought you to this wo Well, as I know, Glen has mentioned be that I'm a retired psychologist, I consider myself something almost an Arkansas nat because I've been here most of my adult life.

I when I was working, I, as a therapist in a private prac I specialized in seeing families and couples, but particularly working with te And so I think that also, I think, made me understand a little bit of the Braver angels concept when Glen approac We had worked together in our state organization doing a lot of projects, continuing education and different types of things togeth and with other psychologists.

When you mentioned that to me, I was pretty intrigued.

And so I think I was somewhat of an easy recruit.

Yeah.

Well, and that was one of the th I was going to ask you, but I guess that would sound lik question, like, you know, how did you first come to Braver But just tell me anything else a but also kind of what has kept y Oh.

What's kept me engaged with angels is that when it's been a difficult time and the training intrigued me in So that was the beginning, and I saw all the possibilities.

I understood what the people who developed the programs.

I really appreciated the thought and and kind of the respect for individual differences and the and the limits of what you can do in a training That's not a therapeutic relatio And they're very clear about tha But it was it was that respect for individual differences and the the goals that that are about inclusiveness and, and civility and also being to appreciate who you are.

It's not it's not about converti It's about understanding and connecting with people.

And that that really drew me in.

What kept me engaged is really w with people like you in April an and the people that we meet alon when we're doing workshops and t that it just renews my optimism and respect for the for people to put aside their an and fears and really engage in conversatio that are meaningful to them.

You know, you mentioned about being a retired psychologi and we know that there are some similarities and the kind of things we can do in skills of braver angels.

But I also remember, you know, w as moderators were trained by Na I wonder if you have any thought about the training you went through with National, how to be a moderator, anything maybe something new that you had already encountered from psychol Yeah, that's that's really was important, a big realization I thought that the I would transfer all my skills o and it'd just be a snap when you're working.

I'll tell you what was similar.

I mentioned that I worked with high conflict families sometimes in couples, but my specialty was, was adoles And and a lot of times that they're coming in because they are angry or their parents are angry.

And so that doesn't -- I'm comfortable with that.

And I thought that would be help but when you're working and when you're working with familie and when you're working with ind you have time to really get to k personally.

In fact, it's important to get to know them personally.

And you invest a lot of time in that individual relationship.

So that is a difference.

But a similarity is a comfort with being able to tolerate high conflict situations.

And probably the really biggest that I see as a similarity betwe is the goals that I kind of ment alluded to a few minutes ago, that Braver Angels -- the whole program, all the works are centered around respect and civility, and in a time when polarization so rampant, and people really stop seeing each other, that we become labels and we're there, the other peopl and they all think this way and they all feel this way.

It's so dehumanizing.

And certainly in my work as a therapist, it's really impo that you get to really know who you're working with and that they are humans.

Not a problem.

And similarly, I think with Braver angels, that is absolutely the goal of the training to remember that help other people participants t that these are we're human being and we're not just a label and we're not just, you know, th this rigid bundle of ideas and b that has no subtlety or nuance.

But what I learned about I learned a lot about myself going through the trainings, because I love my work and I love getting to know peopl I love, you know, asking questio and going down rabbit holes of i sometimes because you you don't know this person and it's important enough for them to share with yo You want to be able to hear it because you don't know what you' to learn about someone.

And in Braver Angels, that doesn't really work very we It's really important.

One of the one of the things that makes the Braver angels mod and the training programs work is that we have all these guardr We want people to be genuine and to express their ideas and belie and share openly and honestly, but we keep it targeted on a top whatever the political topic is or whatever the issue is everyone's agreed t to to discuss and the side stories and the, the sort of tangential roads we can go down when we're talkin about something that can be pret emotional, has to be redirected.

And so it was a different discip for me to I certainly have had to redirect people in therapy se But this was a group and it was very defined redirection.

And when people know that up fro when they when they get engaged, we kind of go over all those rul But I found that I would slip up a lot of times, really want to listen to some sort of other ideas someone was expressing and we had to correct.

So that was probably a big chall for me to work through a similar skill set, but a little bit different as we Well, I can imagine that as a as a therapist, as a psychologis you also got into that work because you wanted to make a dif in people's lives.

But and I'm thinking about with Angels, similar in terms of impa I mean, have you been able to se and see that it makes a difference, the work, you know, if if you have a really solid, therapeutic relationship with pe that you're working with in my p what you hope for and often get that was so wonderful.

And the work that I did and my, my fellow psychologists is when people go, oh my gosh, the impossible situa I thought I was in is not really that impossible.

And I think that that is very si with Braver Angels.

I get to see people coming in go I don't understand how this work Or do we have to talk?

Sometimes when I've asked people encouraged them to go to trainin get involved, they're like, I think this is really important that you all do this work.

But, you know, I don't want to b to a group of strangers about my feelings and beliefs ab gun control, immigration, aborti You know, these are the kind of that we bring up and actually ad So.

I have seen people not also make those kinds of.

Like, stunning, like surprised reactions to the fact that they are talking a and didn't believe that they would be able to talk I want to share a story with you about one person that actually someone I knew and a friend there said, we were doing these trainings, but we were doing a series of civil conversations, which wa really an election kind of perio In the last election, we started in late December of 2 and then went into 24 election.

And so so I knew the the woman, but but she she came up to me afterwards and I came to this because this other person said I really needed to come.

And and she said I was assured I wouldn't have to talk and I wouldn't have to express m that I could just observe everyo And I, you know, I was curious.

And she said, if you would have that, I would have actually not only shared my thoughts and about what the topic of that day but in front of strangers that people I'd never met before I would have called you a liar.

So she this was a person who was very thoughtful, very sophisticated and everythin But it told me several things.

One is that this really does wor that that this person felt very, very comfortable opening u It was we'd done the setting had been that suppor and that welcoming, that people who think that they can't talk about difficult find that they can, and that that's so rewarding and very powerful.

Yeah.

So you've done several workshops and you've alluded to the fact that a lot of people seem a little reluctant to the idea o Can you tell people anything about what a workshop is like?

And they're different depending on the one you were having at th but something that might help pe decide, well, maybe I could hand Yes.

I think the use of the word reluctant is very generous.

Like, no way I'm going to do tha I have a favorite one.

And this is when I when I'm talking to someone who's curious about it, I'll give them an example.

They go, that is really interest So in one, one little exercise we do someti some workshops is we'll divide people who identify as conservatives or and they go to one side of the r or some area where they can talk And then the, the blues or the p who have identified as more libe and they get to identify themsel and we ask them to do this.

Three columns.

You list every stereotype you've ever heard or know that has been made about your gr And so they'll go through and let's say it's the blue grou or the liberal identified group, and they'll say, I'm going to call it snowflakes, child killers.

I mean, some of them get real dr You know, we don't believe in in religion.

And we want, you know, we're going to become socialists I don't know, there were several you know, go through a list and then in the next column they get to refute these stereot What is it about?

That statement isn't true.

And you do this as a group.

And so they go through and list all the things that they say.

Well that's not really accurate.

Here's an example.

You know, my faith is very important to me You know I love children.

And you get to elaborate a littl about that.

But the third column is the is the clincher.

It's what a part what part of that stereotype is Is there a grain of truth in tha And what I, what I really like about that particular exercise is that, first of all, it really makes you look at your So that's a good place to start and going, you know, loosening t a little bit, you know, kind of and going, oh, you know, can I s But it also ends up with a lot of laughter.

Sometimes when people go, well, I kind of do think there should education for everybody or I rea think this way or but but it's n And then the groups come togethe and they share and it's I think it just it's one of those exercises that real speaks to the heart of this whol of where we're more alike than different, and we have the capacity to look at ourselves, to have so about ourselves, be honest with And I just think it's a great starting place.

You know, one of the things I love about that exercise, and I've done multiple of those The red blue workshop is the one that this is typicall in, although you can do that exercise with any topic really, that has people from different s to it, whether it's red or blue you can do in the family, you can do it in the family.

What's the stereotype of, you know, this person?

And one of the things I really love abou is that it allows people to, first of all, recognize that the actually been incorrectly labeled or correctly, and there might be some truth to but there's some intellectual hu also that is present when they s what is the reason?

What is the truth here?

That could be part of it?

You know, another exercise in th workshop is the fishbowl exercis You remember that one where they actually have to sit and actually talk about their th group, and they talk about what the bas they're bragging on their group and then what concerns they have about that group also shows intellectual humility And you know, those I think when people can reclaim their sense of empathy and compa if you if you bring that back into conv it just really enhances the poss to have a really open, honest di with respect for each other that it needs to be there.

It it helps with that dehumanizi that happens with polarization.

People become human again.

And and it's it's it's not a sma As a psychologist, why do you think we dehumanize p I think I think there's a few factors.

I think when people people are e they get scared, sometimes they' frustrated with how things are g They get scared, maybe even really enraged and about injustices that are va And then I think that the worst, the worst, one of the worst things that hap they start to feel hopeless, like there is no way out of ther and that if most of us have had that experience sometim in our life about just don't see how we're going to get out of this situation, or I don't think that things are ever going to get bet or the people that I love.

And I think that fuels some rage and in the worst, and that sense of hopelessness a and the worst terrible things that can happen, it could even lead to violence, attacking other people that you you can blame for the situation you're in or harming self.

I mean, that happens as well.

So and then I think, I think that that's human.

I think all of us have been in t But I think when that sense of f and anger and frustration gets e and stoked and your people are g you are right to feel that those are the people that a you feel that way.

And it happens both, you know, and on any side of any issue.

I think that's the danger.

I think that's what leads to the polarization.

And that we've talked about in dehumanizing.

It's like you get to be enraged someone because they don't matte They are talked about the tribal tendency, which I think is part When you identify enough with on it's good to have a group cohesi The downside is the outgroup, ri And so when you have the outgrou that's when you start to dismiss their worth or even their humanity.

Because we're right, they're wro And some primitive part of your is saying they're a danger to my I'd go step.

I'd go a step further and say that there's also a loya that that I know, you know, that comes with tribal And so another another level of if I question my tribe, they might kick me out or they might come after me because I've question this cohesive, you know, thought process or.

Yeah, so people can get really l I really locked into that.

So we've already established you now retired psychologist, but given your background and your knowledge in that area, I wonder if you have any thought particular things about polariza or the kind of work that we're d you could comment on that might be different from wha maybe someone with a political s or journalists background might be thinking of when they see this whole affair.

Well, I think polarization can h on lots of different levels.

And, and, and we can become pola Anybody can become polarized around issues.

But I think sometimes your background in cer can help you navigate that a lit better.

So for instance, if if you've been exposed to a lot of different people in of different ways of seeing the you might be less prone to that.

But I also think the same people that whose job is to get to facts and truth can sometimes skew that truth as And that's really what's dangero That can happen with the people that we rely on, the journalists and the researchers who we say h make sense of what's going on he You know, what are the what's really happening in this So I that's kind of a complicated que because I really respect and appreciate the journalists and the researchers and the people in media who are desperately to get to the truth and let people have that information to make decisio that are right for them.

And and I think that that's I th that mostly happens, quite frank And when the times or the situat when it doesn't, I think is dang But I'm kind of I'm kind of believing in the good of I reall I think most journalists are really committed to.

Looking at facts and trying to understand what's and what they're reporting.

You know, you mentioned a few minutes ago about hopeless and how fear can sometimes lead to hopelessness and thinkin you can't really make a differen You must think there's something about this work that can make a difference in order for you to remain in it You've been in it for a while no What is it that brings you hope?

You know, I have felt hopeless a and it's it's been a hard period for us as a country.

And, and and sometimes it just gets disco You read the news and it's like there's another ca or there's another school shooting or there's another.

You know what?

Why are we not making headway with some real problems in our c And and I'll get real discourage Nothing.

And why am I continuing with thi or angel stuff?

It's not going to make a differe I mean, I've had those thoughts, of course, because it just feels I'm just we're just chipping awa and maybe that is what we're doi But then we go to a, we have a civil conversation.

And like the the person who came up to me afterwards and said, I can't bel I can't believe applying these skills works or.

You know, I, I this is exciting.

And I go, okay, this is why I do It does work.

And my optimism gets really kind of repurposed.

And, and, and I think this is, this is as much a gift to me as it is to just volunteering for a good cause.

It's really enriching my life as And it reminds me that there were so many good peo and so many people that are just feeling lost and u and quieting their voices, which is also very, very dangerous.

You know, one of the things I th I think we all get tired of doin good work, whatever the good work might be, maybe with our family, our churc you know, we just maybe need to take a sab from it for a little bit.

But I do think about some advice that that one of my mentors and Angel said I would not have had I not been in Rangel.

He lives in Texas, but he he ask He always asked me whenever he talks to me, so how are you d And I'm like, I'm doing okay, yo And sometimes it's about, you know, how I'm feeling about the current political situ Sometimes it's about my family and answering that question.

Sometimes it's about the weather I remember one specific time that he said t you know, what brings you joy in doing thi And I said, well, one of the things that brings me and you mentioned this earlier is moderating.

He says, then you need to go and another workshop, because in the moderation, I mea I end up doing these national wo a lot of times there'll be 100 p that attend over zoom, right?

And so hearing them talk about their experiences and give feedback about what the and hearing them kind of wrestle with what's diff that they're kind of struggling and then maybe even shift a litt in their thinking towards the ot during that workshop is very, very rewarding.

It is.

And and it's similar to what I l about the work I did as a psycho You know, in my practicing, my p it just renews my faith in people and, a and reminds me that there are still plenty of r to be optimistic and and and but also it reminds me of the importance of people claiming their voice and having the courage and feeli that there is enough support for people to listen to them and want to hear their voice.

What does that mean to claim you Because I think about that somet Ecology term.

Well, okay, I don't know what it means then.

So tell me.

Well, I think when you're afraid that what you say might alienate that are important to you or someone might, might come after you, that your or your opinion just doesn't mat and you have all these thoughts going on in your head.

And sometimes they're just quest and you're confused.

Claiming voice may be just voicing your c and asking for clarity and askin to explain things to you.

That's one level of claiming your voice, and the I don't feel the same way you do That's claiming your voice, and okay that we aren't all carbon copies of each other.

It's really what makes our humanity so rich and and interes that people have so many differe perspectives and different ideas and, and we're not going to agre with all of them, ever.

And that doesn't mean that they' a bad person or that we're a bad Yeah.

So I wonder if you have there hopefully people out watching that might be interested in improving their ability to have some of those difficult conversations for people like th Do you have any particular recommendations, maybe something you'd emphasize that they could handle in their everyday interac Well, that's interesting, your choice everyday interactions, because I'm trying to remember you have even mentioned this in in the introduction today that, you know, this has carry o not just about talking about political differences, tha everyday interactions that are t conflictual, can be about very p things and differences among family members or friends, people you work with, anyone you're in community with.

So I think the training that's i Angels is really useful for some basic skills.

You can get that other places you can work with the therapist There's workshops that that are I do think the braver angels Ang model is very precise and the trained moderators get very good training, and the skills are broken down where people can really understa very clearly.

So that's that's certainly I rec workshops just for a variety of But if people are curious about they can go online.

Braver angels, the national organization, has a and you can actually watch some of these workshops and get get your, you know, just get your foot wet a little put your toe in the water a bit.

So I think that there are differ avenues that people can, but I think the first step is id I'm not feeling heard.

I'm really confused.

I'm really frustrated that those great indicators that that you need to reach out And maybe if you have if someone has a friend or someb that's involved in something, they're noticing that they're fe more comfortable talking about i They might ask, just talk to a friend about that.

What do How did you get so comfortable talking about these issues.

And they may make a recommendati So I think I'm going to promote Braver Angels of course.

But but there are other avenues.

And I think it's just asking aro and saying, you know, I am troub And for us, for anybody else to respond to that, don't do thi Don't.

There are people that are doing that you can come and join.

Yeah.

Well put any about one minute left of this interview.

So any more points of advice, th you would like us to our listene to know?

I'm really trying to not give so much advice latel You're retired.

Yeah.

No no no n Even when you're a psychologist, the whole thing is not that advi That's true.

It's about getting people to be psychologist, internalize the ps their own voice of questioning, because it is about questioning.

It is about getting clarity and about who you are, what you beli in, what you really care about.

And over and over again in our w people find common ground where they thought they never wo That's a biggie.

Lisa, we're about out of time, so I just want to let you know h we appreciated having you on and with us and sharing your insight I appreciate what you had to say Thanks for joining us.

Thank you and all the work that you've don over the years with this organization and for b building and helping other famil So thank you.

Thanks for having It's always a pleasure working with the two of you.

April, that was a fascinating co with Lisa.

I really appreciated some of the things she had to sa Kind of wondering what stuck with you about that.

I was so glad that she brought o some of the things that we do in our workshops.

That made me think again.

It's been a while since I've don one of the red blue workshops as a moderator, again, about the power of the tools.

The tools themselves that have been developed in Brav that people can use to actually of understand themselves, but al see if they can find common grou with other people.

And that was that was the one thing that stuc And then, of course, she's a psy As I asked the question about what advice that she would give to our listeners and I don't give advice.

And I thought, that's interestin that's kind of the philosophy he We're not trying to change other We're really getting to think about myself and where I'm coming from, and the questions that I might b and how I want to improve my own communication with other And and that just seems so famil when I think about braver angels and what we do with this work.

What about you?

Well, for me, several things.

I was just really impressed with a lot of the points she mad but I thought it was really inte Her description of the training that you go through to be a moderator from National, its o So if anyone's interested out th Don't worry about it.

It's not terribly difficult.

But she made the point of how some of the skills and attribute of a good moderator for Braver Angels is similar to like, what she's done as a psychologis But there were also some very important differences, because we have slightly differe that we target in those two fiel I found that to be interesting t because initially when I got trained to be a moder I thought it was going to all be as what I do in my everyday teac And I found that there were multiple things that I had to do differently, and learning about how to do those in order to be a workshops for bright ranges is interesting.

Another thing that I found inter that she talked about was a sense of hopelessness, and how often I have felt that, or o listeners might have felt that i things are never going to change And then how do people get invol And when I think about that, I think about the statement that a former student of mine said, and I learned this from th Actually, other people probably have heard this statement from o which is all politics is local, and we sometimes forget about politics being loca and we think it's just going to to the individual, the people that we elect for off to actually make a difference.

But brave Rachel says we all can citizens.

That's right.

Citizens, don't leave it up to the politicians and profes You know, that's that's actually a very important that our country's founders made when they were writing about thi new constitutional democratic re they had created.

Is that in order for this to sur and thrive as a new system of go it needs to involve people, the average people, and the citi getting involved in their govern or their community in some way.

They also talk about things like which we don't hear that word mu but you might say character or values or morals, but people with virtuous standar and that actually impacted their in a positive way, that that was important for the and survival of our government.

And I guess things like that.

Education.

They talked about how it's impor that people be educated.

So I think all of those say citizens are important.

I mean, think about it.

This democratic process we have involves making decision And if a citizen or the citizenr wants to be impacting the decisions that are made, they have to make their decision at the local level.

And that may be, for instance, educating themselves about candi making sure they go vote, but vote based on an educated ev of the candidates.

Not just because I like that nam I have an uncle, that name of that kind of thing.

So it's really important.

And I think the other thing abou the virtue part that relates to and that's something that struck about Braver angels, is that we emphasize values.

You know, we have our own politi in our personal life, but we have our braver angels ha We don't advocate for a politici or a party or a position.

Instead, we are in my mind, this is the way I see it.

We're advocating for certain val We're advocating for democratic of government of some sort.

We're advocating for people to respond to their higher value rather than the base strong emot of anger and fear and tribal ide and that sort of thing.

So those are some of the reasons I think, that it's important for people to be involved at whatever level they can.

I think it's really important.

You mentioned our democratic form of governmen And just to clarify, you're not about Democratic like Democrats.

Oh, absolutely.

You know, the other.

Absolutely.

Absolutely not.

Absolutely not.

Okay.

Thank you.

We're talking about a small D, I think is the way they describe the the democratic form of gover Now the other thing that sometim up, I hear people say, well, now that's not legit becau we're not a democracy, we're a r And that's what what Ben Frankli The lady asked, well, what kind of government do we come up Well, a republic, if you can kee The thing is, by most people's a a republic is just another form of democrac It's a representative democracy where a direct democracy is everybody gets together, makes the decisions.

But in this case, we get together through election and vote our representatives who go in and make the decision And if we don't like their decis we have the option to vote them So most people would say seeing Republic is not a democracy is like saying a Ford is not a c You know, for a lot of many year I actually thought that my only responsibility as a civic, as a citizen was to Maybe I would go, you know, to the steps of the Ca and be with a group of people supporting an issue.

But I never thought about some of my responsibility could actually be working togeth with others who are different th And that's a gift that Braver Angels gives.

And one of the things that we re our listeners will take from thi is that if you are interested in this work, that that you actu look up and see what braver Angel stands But there are many bridge buildi organizations we would love to s local groups, local civil conversations, local people that get together across their differences to do citizen led solutions to community problems, or to have specific workshops.

Maybe there's a there's a commen there's an issue that's that's c the community to kind of get up But not everybody agrees.

Well, we have tools that are str dialog tools that can help peopl actually have those kinds of conversation we hope that there are people ou listening and saying, I would love to do this, but I don't know how to get invo And so how would they even start to get involved?

Well, probably the easiest thing is go to our well, okay, let's make two distinction the national organization and our Arkansas organization, Brave Rangers Arkansas.

If you do national go to Braver and there's a lot of information They even have some what they call courses, brief on courses that teach you some basi even something on social media.

Interestingly, if you want to do something with us in Arkansas, which we wo is to volunteer and you can go to our website at And we have contacts, contact information th where you can contact us.

We have a survey online that you fill out and give us some inform just send to this one email that I think would go to y and say, hey, I'm interested in more and we'll talk to you about We can work up a time to meet or talk over the phone or a zoom call or whatever and tell you what we might could But I'll tell you what, I have not found anyone who's been interested in volunte that we couldn't use in some way We have some areas where there a that we need more than others, b everybody who's interested, we can usually find what their i and their skill levels are and find some way to use the So please holler at us if you're interested.

The National, our new CEO who came in last Jul She's been in for the national w He's been in almost a year now.

He talks about that.

There are many different paths to get into this bridge building and one of them is to get educated ourselves.

One of them is to do reading.

Another one is to actually, do, you know, get trained as a m or get trained as an ambassador or debate chair, for example.

But showing up to a civil conver meeting, you know, or starting one we're going to have a guest on that's going to be talking about civil conversations.

He's going to be doing them across the state.

And so that would be an opportun to get involved with people who may have different opinions, but you can learn that.

You can talk to them.

So I do think about that.

There are many different ways.

The other thing that Lisa made m think about is that these skills are really skills for everyday conversations.

We'll be talking in future episo about some a skill set that we call the lap And so those lap skills are list acknowledging, pivoting and pers just to kind of give a preview.

But we're going to be talking ab how those can be used even in a nonpolitical environme So a person says something to yo that you don't fully understand or you kind of react to, rather immediately just jumping to conc You can ask them a question or a what they've said to see if you're hearing them co and tell a little bit more about what it is that you're thi and hearing at this point.

And so I do think that these ski are transferable to other kinds of settings as we Yeah, they do come.

Many of the skills do come from some of the basic things that yo our respective traditions and di share.

You know, communication, conflic resolution, you know, things that therapists It's just like I said one time previously that I learned them and I used them i as a psychologist before I retir But the idea of using them in po in political conversations was a But what a powerful one it is.

We have to be open.

I oftentimes tell my students about conversational receptivene this idea that I'm open to heari that are different than what I e and what the norm is.

Well, if people want to learn mo about braver angels in the meant you can find us that Arkansas An and our podcast, on the other ha is available wherever you listen to podcasts or on our Braver Angels Arkansas Again, that's Arkansas Angels.

And remember that we're going to episodes of Braver Arkansas show up on our podcast.

That's right.

So people can hear it and listen or they can watch it.

Yeah, well, thanks for being wit We look forward to our next epis and we'll see you next time.